Hi Brainstew, thanks heaps for the feedback on the mats.  I think I know what you mean about the parameters making no sense.  This might be a new bug, I don't know, because I do a lot of 'testing' by clicking on the little buttons to try and get different effects - I have a feeling that Bryce might save these test things even though the texture is different.  I did notice a few strange things going on.  I think what has to happen is maybe writing down the settings i did and start over, or something.  most of the time this might be a pain because i use the random button to create stuff and see what i like.  Guess one thing is good about it, people can't copy the textures because they have no idea what the hell i have done   most of the bumps and textures i save in the brt part of bryce so i might do some experiments and see if it is saving my fart arounds.