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Axe_Swipe
(Stranger)
09/12/07 05:52 AM
Questionable Tubes Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

While browsing the Plugins section, I started seeing a lot of PSP tubes that were .png renders of Aiko and other Poser and DAZ figures with commercial textures and clothing.

While I can't say with any certainty regarding e-frontier's products, I know DAZ's TOU on their products states that they cannot be used in a way that "directly competes" with the sales of their products, which to a degree, these PSP tubes do just that because they allow someone to download for free rendered versions of DAZ products to add into their images without actually purchasing the actual model/texture/product.

I tried flagging one of them, but it just gave me an error stating that I cannot flag an item from another site.





Jumpstartme2
(Journeyman)
09/13/07 02:26 AM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: Axe_Swipe]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

The textures and characters cannot be extracted from the rendered images. It would be no different than posting a rendered image of say,.. a Vue scene with several of the objects that come within Vue, and posting it in a gallery for all to use as wallpaper or a desktop background.

 

You could however write to Daz and ask them if they allow tubes to be made of Aiko for use in other images. 





Axe_Swipe
(Stranger)
09/13/07 05:18 AM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: Jumpstartme2]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

Actually, it is different, becasue a render that is posted and used as a wallpaper is an original work that does not compete with sales of products because the wallpaper is not being used to create new images.

The tubes do compete with sales because they are providing a means for others to create new/derivitive images using a product derivitive that they may not legally own.

This subject comes up often in the DAZ forums and the answer is generally. "No, you cannot do that".



joypauline
(Stranger)
09/13/07 07:41 AM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: Jumpstartme2]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

Yes...a difficult area indeed. Daz do give permission for png format. If a provider were, however, to deliver lots of images of say the millennium cat in all its poses, then I see a problem. Images are often supplied for postwork and this topic has been discussed time and time again!!!

See....http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=49315 for a product in their marketplace. This involves the medusa and both DAZ and the vendor state that "they have no problem with this".

I was under the impression that png images could be used and I can give you links to many sites that actually SELL them.

Hope this helps in some way!!!





Axe_Swipe
(Stranger)
09/13/07 12:01 PM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: joypauline]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

Interesting, I had not seen that product before, but then again I don't shop ant Rendo often.

Well, I'm man enough to admit that I'm apparently wrong, so I'll just shut up now.Tongue out





joypauline
(Stranger)
09/13/07 12:41 PM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: Axe_Swipe]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

Absolutely no need to shut up!!!!!....you are right to question!!!! This has always been a sticky area and it all depends on how the render is used. There is a limit to what another person can do with a render. You are not giving away the model and all that goes with it OR the expensive software needed to generate that render. The problem arises if you provide lots of different views that essentially reproduce the product. From what I can gather, DAZ want customers to use their products innovatively...i.e. make use of our expensive software (Poser 7, Bryce, Photoshop etc) and products and provide materials that even the 2D community seek. There are many uses for Poser output.....from scenes to animation to imagery. Personally, I do all of them!  At the end of the day, appropriate rendering in Poser requires a knowledge of good lighting, the material and cloth room AND the animation palette.

 You keep posting....I found your observations very interesting as I too have had a problem with some earlier work on this site where poser renders where offered just as a collection pngs with a single animal/object provided in all different poses and angles. This, I do not agree with.

Sorry for the long post....BUT....I am partly in agreement with you......but NOT particularly on the legal issue as you state it. it all depends upon how the renders are presented.

Will investigate further for you.

Cheers

Pauline

P.S. mail me of you like.





joypauline
(Stranger)
09/14/07 05:23 AM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: Axe_Swipe]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

Hi again....did some research and here is another link from Rendo for you to view. OK?

Cheers

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=50616&





MatrixWorkz
(Journeyman)
09/14/07 11:05 AM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: joypauline]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

Frankly I find most tubes to be questionable when they're made from commercial products. You want to use a commercial font in your art work? Buy the damn font! Don't go downloading tubes of commercial fonts that you haven't paid for and don't MAKE tubes of commercial items you've paid for and sell or give them away to others. That's my take. Take it or leave it.  Cool

It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Albert Einstein


joypauline
(Stranger)
09/14/07 11:47 AM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: MatrixWorkz]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

Excuse me.....are you having a go at me?????...I do not make tubes and I create all my own fonts effects from commercial, true type plain black and white font types.....These are my own effects...they are NOT purchased from anywhere. So what are you saying.....I create all my my own stuff????

Please explain what you mean. You cleary have misunderstood.





joypauline
(Stranger)
09/14/07 12:31 PM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: MatrixWorkz]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

I also meant to say....I buy my own black and white fonts.....really don't know what you are tring to say....you seem yo be targetting me and I find you very rude. Go and attack those who upload actual PSP tubes....render after render. And....get your facts right first. I do not need this!!!!

I have tried to be helpful and you seem to be a very angry person.





MatrixWorkz
(Journeyman)
09/14/07 06:45 PM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: joypauline]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

I don't have to explain what I said. It was very clearly written. I don't know you nor was my comment aimed at you. I merely stated what I think about Tubes made from commercial items and fonts. What I think shouldn't bother you a bit because I'm not forcing you or anyone else to think the way I do. I do have a right to say what I think though.

Now if I had said, "OH, you're evil and going to hell for tubing!" THAT would have been me "having a go at you". I don't think that about you though and I wouldn't say it if I did. Sealed I think you need to stop wearing your heart on your sleeve when you read the forums.

It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Albert Einstein


joypauline
(Stranger)
09/15/07 10:16 AM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: MatrixWorkz]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

Just to clarify the position on rendered images from Poser....here is a link

http://market.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2708402

I have consulted all the necessary copyright people and I think it is time that this issue was just accepted. I do Poser renders and alphabets and removed my stuff yesterday out of sheer frustration. How stupid I was...it took hours and hours to upload because I am one of those members whose uploads fail to appear.

I am not a tuber....(although the same conditions to apply to this practice) so can we just accept that the EULA and the statements from the experts is correct!!!!?????

Thanks for listening....I am so fed up with ignorance!!! I spend hours on my educational work and the stuff that I had posted here (now gone forever) but c'est la vie!!!!

Cheers





MatrixWorkz
(Journeyman)
09/15/07 11:39 AM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: joypauline]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

That thread only refers to commercially sold items from Renderosity. Each and every store on the net has it's own EULA and many stores do not allow commercial products to be made based on their items. I know for a fact that many font makers don't allow their fonts to be reproduced and sold. Always read your EULA's when you buy commercial products that you intend to use for resale or giveaways. Cool

Ignorance of the copyright laws won't protect you in a court of law. 

It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Albert Einstein



joypauline
(Stranger)
09/15/07 11:51 AM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: MatrixWorkz]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

I do read my EULAs and get written confirmation from font providers. I have clarified the situation with DAZ too. All I am saying is that I have done my research and want to share it. I have also collaborated with vendors today and they have reinforced my statements. Just want to make it clear because it has been discussed and discussed and discussed. I am worn out now with ensuring that I have my facts straight. It is 8 O'clock in the evening here in the UK and I have had long day and night!!!

Thanks for your reply!!





Kimber89
(Stranger)
09/16/07 09:34 PM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: Axe_Swipe]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

Axe, sweetie, you just about had me go into a fit! LOL!!

I have a DA account in which I supply renders as stock for photomanipulations....

Several months ago, I stopped because this very issue came up in the Daz Forums. I watched the topic carefully, even asked if what I was doing was wrong & if it violated Daz' EULA. SKrondis himself said he doesn't have any issues with "tubes" (if I could hunt down that long, long thread again....).

The issue has more to do with rendering say textures on a plane or square where someone could extract them from a 2D image and the Daz Environments. Straight renders of the Cyclorama & other environments are a strict no-no, even if you throw in a couple of plants. The environments have to be filled in such a way that someone can't get the the actual Cyclo, MilEnvironment, & Playsets.

I have started doing my "3D" stock again BTW and I am careful about how & what I render. I don't promote my DA stock to 3D sites as they are for 2D manipulations or web design.

If .pngs or "tubes" are not allowed then there are a slew of DA stockers & tube providers on the net that are in a heap of trouble, including myself.





Axe_Swipe
(Stranger)
09/17/07 09:25 AM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: Kimber89]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

It really wasn't my intention to start a big argument here, but obviously my OP has had that effect and if I upset anyone, I apologize.

It seems that what I had interpreted to be a no-no has turned out to become an acceptable practice and therefore I'll digress the issue.

Kimber, I know you do great work and always look forward to seeing more of it Laughing

Which reminds me btw, I'm redoing my site and still have some of your t-shirt textures there.  If you have them uploaded here, send me the links and I'll be happy to redirect the links so you get credit for the views. Cool





Kimber89
(Stranger)
09/17/07 10:37 AM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: Axe_Swipe]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

You haven't upset anyone Axe. *Big HUG*

It's that one line the EULAs that causes a great deal of confusion that's not necessary. 

A "competing" product means you can't extract the mesh/texture to create another mesh/texture to redistribute for sale or free. The Daz Environments, NERD Backdrop, etc., are already "textures" on a basically flat plane therefore "rendering" an unfilled bare environment is an EULA violation since one really doesn't need to buy the environments if someone has out a bare render of it.

"Competing product" does not apply to a render .png of a posed V4 dressed in the MFD. You can't extract the V4 or MFD mesh from a flat 2D image and you can't extract the textures in their original format (meaning the texture map itself).

You have reminded me to get started on Halloween textures for your clothing Axe!!

You can upload the Tees here, you did the MATs for them! ;) 





Axe_Swipe
(Stranger)
09/17/07 10:48 AM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: Kimber89]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

In that case, I'll get the Christams textures uploaded, but the Star texture set you did is still just the texture files.

 I'll see about getting MATs created for that though ;)





Kimber89
(Stranger)
09/17/07 11:02 AM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: Axe_Swipe]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

UGH! That Star set...what was that, my very first texture? LMAO!

Great! *HUG*





joypauline
(Stranger)
09/17/07 12:30 PM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: Kimber89]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

Thanks for your information Kimber!!!!!

Smile





Panthia
(Stranger)
09/30/07 01:33 PM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: joypauline]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

90% of tubes are used by pspers who don't even have poser/bryce/daz studio.  They make sig tags for psp groups.....they are not hurting any one!  They just want to add glitter to what someone else does........That's what my tubes are used for......

 Here's an example.....DeviouslyDesign allows pspers to use her poser tubes to make sig tags......that doesn't hurt daz or anyone else!  As a matter of fact, it HELPS them..... Thats how I got started in poser.  Alot of the artists stopped allowing their artwork to be tubed.  They started wanting people to pay for it, which was fine, but alot of people couldn't afford it...me being one of those people.  I got Daz Studio and started with free content just so I could have some tubes to use in psp.  Then I wasn't satisfied and started making whole images....then I had to start buying those killer clothing packs...then the textures......So those tubes HELP the poser community alot more than they hurt!

 





Panthia
(Stranger)
09/30/07 01:39 PM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: Panthia]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

Maybe a section in Poser for tubes would help calm some down?  Because I do agree they don't go in plug-ins or textures.....but it 'was' the best place we had for them.



joypauline
(Newbie)
09/30/07 01:42 PM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: Panthia]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

Oh Panthia......I totally agree with you!!!!!!.....I am well aware that these products help rather than hinder. I too make renders for 2D products that others just cannot afford. I admire your work and don't know how you got the impression that I was against this!

Smile





Panthia
(Stranger)
09/30/07 01:54 PM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: joypauline]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

Joy....didn't think you were against me or tubes in general.....Just wanted to show how tubes are used by the majority of peeps who use them.  LOL....Now that I read my post I was a little bitchy wasn't I!  I'd rather provide someone with a clean tube than have them take one of my images and cut out all the background......

 Just wanted others to know that tubes are meant to be harmless fun for pspers......and to point out that some good does come in a very long run to those who create pay packs for poser.  LOL.....It would have been tons cheaper for me to just buy tubes from CILM or GILD than to get into poser....but there wouldn't have been that satisfaction level for me!





joypauline
(Newbie)
09/30/07 02:05 PM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: Panthia]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

Yes indeed...they fulfull the needs of many who have no interest ain purchsing and learning 3D software. Renders/tubes have their place in the CG world. Like you, I prefer to use the software and most importantly to animate. We need to accept that there are many who need good images for other purposes.

Thanks for your reply!Laughing





Kimber89
(Stranger)
09/30/07 03:22 PM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: Panthia]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

Oooooooo nice sig tag Panthia!! Have you heard of Sensual Dolls?

 I totally agree with you, tubes made in Poser got me started. I used to buy tubes from GI but I mainly do my own, although I still swipe some from Outlaw. LOL





Panthia
(Stranger)
10/01/07 07:56 AM
Re: Questionable Tubes new [re: Kimber89]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

I've heard of Senual Dolls...And I think once upon a time I had a few of their tubes....then HD crashed and I lost all my tubes and just recollect cause I don't use psp much anymore for sig tags......




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