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joypauline
(Journeyman)
10/29/07 10:49 PM
Quiet forums Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

it seems that the forums have gone rather quiet!!!!! has everyone gone into hibernation for the winter???

Thanks to the team for the 2D section. I notice that it has appeared since I have been away. I do still see 2D items appearing in other areas though. Anyone know why??

Cheers





jakehellerModerator
(Journeyman)
10/30/07 06:28 AM
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Hi Pauline,

You're right--I was going to comment on how quiet the forums were too! Where'd everyone go?

The 2d section is new, and it'll take some time for everyone to start posting their old stuff there, and continue to post all new items there as well.... that said, I hope all members who read this do make the switch, because it will definitely help all ShareCG users find  what they're looking for!

-Jake 





joypauline
(Journeyman)
10/30/07 07:22 AM
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Yes....I think the 2D section will take off in time. But...all this silence is very different to what we are used to!!!!

Where is Matrixworkz?????....I miss him!!! Despite our initial altercation, I enjoy his posts so much. He has done much to help everyone and certainly makes us think.

Cheers to all





jakehellerModerator
(Journeyman)
10/30/07 09:18 AM
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Maybe everyone is working their asses off to finish for the halloween challenge? I'll take that as an acceptable response.

-Jake





joypauline
(Journeyman)
10/30/07 11:30 AM
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LOL....of course Jake!!!!....forgot it is Hallows eve tomorrow!!! Hope the contest goes well.

Chuckles......

 





irishlostboy
(Newbie)
10/30/07 04:39 PM
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i always thought the forums were quiet.

mainly i think the point is people spend more time elsewhere, where there is more community. the quietness of the forum is a symptom of the diluted nature of the main site. the internet is great for making "money" and getting things for "free". this site has both. both a good idea, and a bad one.

i  know i will not be "mr popular" for saying this. i dont really care. someone has to stop being so polite. you want a "community" good reputation, and a level of quality for sharecg? well, make it so. delete the crap. delete the stuff thats there just to take advantage of the system.

i dont care either way. i dont care about the money. i just want a place to provide hosting for my free files. they are great advertising for me. selfish? yup. but why is anyone here?

yea, me = mr evil?  



http://irishlostboy.deviantart.com/gallery/
http://www.sharecg.com/pf/irishlostboy


jakehellerModerator
(Journeyman)
10/30/07 06:01 PM
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Hi irishlostboy,

You (and others on this site) definitely have a point: there are a few people on the site taking advantage of the system. Of course, I couldn't tell you exactly who they are--there are some (one or two) clear cases, but there are far more border-line cases, and those I don't know how to deal with.

But I do question your connection between "junk" on the site and the "lack" of community--have you ever spent 10 minutes on YouTube clicking around? YouTube definitely is a community, the millions and millions and millions of crappy uploads nothwithstanding.

And of course, forums are not funded--a community can--and hopefully wil--build up around our forums. It's important to keep in mind how very new this site is (7 months old this month!) and how long true communities take to build.

I think that a community can build up, even (and especially with) our payment system. In fact, I think that people will tend to give us some higher quality stuff than might appear free on other parts of the web, and I think the fact that we have gotten around 2,000 free models, 4,000 free textures, and 300 tutorials, all submitted by users, and most of pretty admirable quality over the last 7 months is pretty astounding.

What needs to happen most is community policing--we need to somehow get more people flagging bad items and rating items in general. Then, perhaps we at ShareCG need to find out ways to make the good rise to the top, and the bad stay... well... at the bottom, so the good people really get rewarded. The way that YouTube et. al. do that is by measuring ratings and views; the way videos get lots of ratings and views is by people, who genuinely like the video, embed it and link to it all over the place. If we could get that to happen here with our genuinely good content, that would be for the better. Then, we might really start to see a community.

-Jake





MatrixWorkz
(Member)
10/30/07 07:24 PM
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I think what we need are some moderators who can deal with the forums with as little emotion as possible. The moderators I admire the most over at Renderosity are the ones who are the most even handed with everyone. Jumpstartme2 and Karen jump to mind for me. They are excellent at dealing calmly in emotionally charged threads with the participants on both sides.

I'd say the uploads area needs some equally commited moderators who can puruse the downloads with as little bias as possible. I know it's a huge task and before you say anything, I'm not applying. I get too emotional and am not fit for either job. Embarassed



It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Albert Einstein


joypauline
(Journeyman)
10/30/07 07:24 PM
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I agree with BOTH you and Jake!!! it only takes a few spammers to get a site a bad reputation but there is much quality "stuff" on this site.

After reading many of the posts in these forums, I do get the impression that the DIVERSITY of computer graphic output is not always recognised and there appear to be 'camps' who do not seem to appreciate one another.

It does seem to be the spamming that has caused bad feelings and it is in this respect that community policing would be valuable. I have had the pleasure of downloading some excellent material but it can take such a long time to plough through so many similar uploads.

I may be totally wrong in this view but, as Jake says, this is a very young site and has achieved much since it came on line. I know for certain that there are many who have enjoyed and appreciated its presence.

That's just my view and I would love to hear the views of others!!!

Cheers





adp__
(Newbie)
10/31/07 01:57 AM
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"But I do question your connection between "junk" on the site and the "lack" of community--have you ever spent 10 minutes on YouTube clicking around? YouTube definitely is a community, the millions and millions and millions of crappy uploads nothwithstanding."

I see a connection. Interesting people (from this sites point of view) have a home allready "elsewhere". Being an active community member here means giving up something other. To do that, there must be a very good reason.

YouTube and other famous communities are simply big (big userbase). Impossible to stop people building "communities" if enough people are around. The day ShareCG has a certain amount of users, the same effect may happen here.

I have had a lot of private discussions about ShareCG with others. Elswhere :)

Most of them said: Good concept, a few rough edges, but we will see. The picture people has build from ShareCG is: Free hosting for freebies funded by ads, maybe a few cents cash-back, but not worth to mention (selling crap on Renderosity is more worthwhile).

Not really a good reason to become a part of a community for people sitting on content yo may looking for. On the other side, in combination with a non existing sign-in verification or other kind of protection, a good reason to attract people with "make-an-easy-dollar-with-crap" in mind. The "good people" has to compete with this kind of users - not very attractive for them.

One fact more: A lot of voices talking about problems with shareCG. From "can't download at all" to "captured a virus/trojan with the download". Bad news spreads faster and more effective than good news.

I for me try to go with a new concept for my content. I think I'm able to create reasonable attractive content with good quality relatively fast. Mostly Poser content - not really sure you like to see this. And yes, I'm interested to use ShareCG as part of my business.

From my point of view ShareCG has a great future. I'm glad that you do what you do. Thanks for that.

(Sorry, english is not my first language)





marcodd
(Stranger)
10/31/07 04:05 AM
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[cut]What needs to happen most is community policing--we need to somehow get more people flagging bad items and rating items in general[cut]

It is not much helpful in creating a true community, for example, to have a rating system like this. What is the vantage for the community to have the possibility to enter as a guest (anonymous) and post comments on the user works? Why a registered user can rate another user work, but his rate and nickname is not visible (but i guess it is registered in some database)?

You will agree with me that this mechanism can lead to abuses and it doesn't really make it a useful tool to use (imho). In a real community, i think the "anonymous" should not exist.

Sorry for my bad English, anyway i hope you can understand what i want to say.





joypauline
(Journeyman)
10/31/07 05:56 AM
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You are so right marcodd....it is so pointless to have anonymous...I think it is used ofen (but not always) by those who seem to enjoy abusing the system. I gave a 10 star rating to a member yesterday and left a comment to match my rate. Within a short period of time some anonymous user came along and downgraded my rating. No comment was made so I question their motive for doing it!!!!

As my comment was the only one there at the time, the member could easily have assumed that the lower rating was from me. As I saw this downgrade, I went and commented on how I had actually rated and questioned why someone would come along and anonynomously downgrade.

This is the problem. It would be better is all ratings were identified to all...much more realistic and fair! The whole system then becomes useful and provides valuable feedback to providers.

Cheers





jakehellerModerator
(Journeyman)
10/31/07 07:04 AM
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Hi joypauline,

I think that problem stems from the fact that we don't have enough users rating in the first place. If there were more than two ratings on that one upload, each individual rating wouldn't matter nearly as much. Instead, the user would get a the average view of what people thought of his/her work.

It's important to remember that rating really has two purposes: to give feedback to the person who uploaded it, and to let other people who come to the site know what they're looking at, based on the average experience of other users. That second role is what I was hoping the rating system would really do for our users--help them sort by rating and rely on the experience of the past average user. 

-Jake





marcodd
(Stranger)
10/31/07 09:35 AM
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Hi joypauline,

i'm glad you agree with me.

But, as we can see, the site policy appears to be the following:

let them do whatever they want. No rules. A large base of users will regulate the abuses. 

I have some  doubts about this, it's a too optimistic vision about human nature.

Why in other big CG sites we HAVE to be registered to make anything? Why at Renderosity, for example, i cannot rate an image, without  posting a comment at the same time ? Are they silly, in that place? Or they know that , if they give people the opportunity to act as anonymous, they will find for sure someone who have time to lose making nice things, like the ones that you described so well?

Just to be as clear as possible about users self-regulation: Sharecg have created the 2d section... go to the Poser section and you will find 2 pages (actually, i guess they will increase in the next hours) of 2d images (png tubes), zipped and posted under the other format and category...





adp__
(Newbie)
10/31/07 10:29 AM
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"It's important to remember that rating really has two purposes: to give feedback to the person who uploaded it, and to let other people who come to the site know what they're looking at, based on the average experience of other users. That second role is what I was hoping the rating system would really do for our users--help them sort by rating and rely on the experience of the past average user. "

A lot of categories needs a download and testing time before rating says something usefull for upcoming users. 

 





MatrixWorkz
(Member)
10/31/07 11:26 AM
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What bother's me is that people keep complaining about anonymous down ratings when as far as I've been able to ascertain, you can't rate anything unless you are logged in with a membername. I understand that even being logged in you can rate without leaving a comment and thus it looks anonymous to the users, but the ratings are logged by accountname and can be checked by the admin's.

As for this "Mysterious Down Rating" conspiracy theory that seems to be growing a life of it's own. There's no mystery at all. If an Item only has two ratings, one being 5 stars and one being 1 star, the system is going to average it out. Just because I happen to rate something with only one or two stars doesn't mean I'm being malicious, it just means that is what I think that item deserves.

With only 5 Stars total being allowed, I reserve 5 Stars for items that I find are exceptionally excellent. On the average, I rate most items with 2 or 3 stars unless they're outstanding in some way. I feel that is the most honest way to rate items.



It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Albert Einstein


joypauline
(Journeyman)
10/31/07 12:41 PM
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Hmmmmmmmmm....ever the stabiliser....I like the way you always come up with plausible explanations!!!!!!

I still think that some people downrate for the sake of it BUT not in all cases. I have seen outstanding work here that has ended up with 2 stars.

But........I take your point as always!!!

Cheers





marcodd
(Stranger)
10/31/07 12:58 PM
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As you know, if you rate  a work without commenting, that rate looks anonymous to the work owner. It's not important at all that the administrator has access to the rates database.

What is the useful thing if i cannot see who rated me, and especially, if i cannot know why? The problem here is not the stars number, i appreciate a lot (really)  if i got low ratings with honest critics, if they are useful to improve my work. But what i have to do with a one star rating, if i don't know why i got it, or what is the problem with my work?

In my opinion, if someone rates a work, he must be obliged to write a comment, and must be clearly identifiable with his nickname. I can't see where is the problem.

All major CG sites have the rating system integrated with signed comments , i don't understand why ShareCG must be different.

Edited by marcodd on 10/31/07 01:55 PM.



MatrixWorkz
(Member)
10/31/07 01:48 PM
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Star ratings are simply one way of voicing opinions on your work. Comments are another. I see no reason why someone should have to write their reasons for voicing their opinions with however many stars are used. Frankly, I find the fact that someone took the time to view my work long enough to apply even 1 star to it to be complimentary. So many people just view and leave nothing behind to note that they were even there except for the viewcounts, And believe me, I LOVE having view counts! Stars are just icing on the cake so to speak. Comments are the flavored sprinkles on the cupcake!

It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Albert Einstein


irishlostboy
(Newbie)
10/31/07 02:30 PM
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i want to go back to what jake said about "not knowing what to do about borderline cases", the general views held on the subject of spamming and low quality uploads etc. what this site needs is a [censored]. everyone is being far too nice about the whole thing, out of fear of hurting somones feelings, or maybe out of fear of someone turning around and saying "well your work is [censored] too, maybe it should be deleted".

we all agree the site, and the forum needs moderation of some class. yes, a non emotional approach to site moderation is a must (and a really hard job too)

a knowledgable mderater for site content is needed also. someone who knows what "good" work is, in all the various catagories. now, this invites the argument of "art is about expression and good is a subjective point of view". this is of course a load of bollocks. (my backround in fine art proved this for me well and truely for me. lol)

this is a CG site providing assets, not an art site providing ego soothing, or a get rich quick site, providing a low signal-to-noise ratio. there is no interpretation needed to see that a piece of unusable polysoup mesh is crap. that a piece of hastyly thrown together primitives is crap. that a totally rubbish piece of procedurally generated texture is crap. etc etc etc.

everyone should be commended on their tact and diplomacy. especially jake. but when being nice doesn't work, shelve it. you are not answerable to anyone.  so delete the "borderline cases" delete the crap. delete the spam. if it not a useful, usable well crafted piece of work, it is just dragging down the potential of the site as a whole.

i know i am representing the more "extreme" views on the health of sharecg. someone has to.  



http://irishlostboy.deviantart.com/gallery/
http://www.sharecg.com/pf/irishlostboy


marcodd
(Stranger)
10/31/07 02:40 PM
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"Star ratings are simply one way of voicing opinions on your work"

Opinions, in real life, are expressed in first person  (i hope it's the correct english phrase... sorry i'm italian) .

Anonymous opinions haven't any value, in any place in this world.

So, for what i can understand, you eventually don't want to explain or comment your rates... should be good... but i guess you would not be contrary to an automatic system that (it's only an hypothetical example) notify to me that Matrixworkz has rated my work 1 star...





MatrixWorkz
(Member)
10/31/07 03:13 PM
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That depends on whether or not you plan on sending me hostile emails or PM's because of my choice of star ratings. I can see down sides on both sides of the issue which is partly why I rate so few things with stars at all. If I wanted PM responses to my opinions on someone's work I'd leave a comment that they could reply to. The way I see it if I give a star at all it means I considered your work good enough to view and rate. If I give no star after viewing then you should worry about what I really think of your work.

"Anonymous opinions haven't any value, in any place in this world."

That itself is an opinion and I don't happen to share it. As I've already stated, any stars on my work whether it be 1 or 5 means someone thought enough of my work to rate it and that is how I view the star ratings. 

It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Albert Einstein



Panthia
(Newbie)
10/31/07 03:18 PM
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Oh I'm with Matrix on this!  I rate/star very few!  And I try, altho I don't always, to leave a comment when I rate something......but I sure don't want to get messages moaning about a bad star rating so if I, me me me me me, don't think it's worth atleast a 4 star rating.....I don't rate!



MatrixWorkz
(Member)
10/31/07 03:23 PM
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I'm not afraid to rate 1 star. Frankly if nobody ever rates less than 4 stars then the whole star rating system is suddenly skewed and irrelevant to begin with. This is why ratings systems always end up so controversial and useless in the end. If I can't rate something what I think it deserves then why rate it at all? It's not crap or I wouldn't rate it at all.

I don't know about everyone else, but Star ratings to me are completely Kindergarden in nature. When I was in grade school, any Star on my homework was "Above and Beyond" the grade itself. It was icing on my cake. It was the sweetness above it's grade! Laughing



It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Albert Einstein


Panthia
(Newbie)
10/31/07 03:39 PM
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I get what you're saying Matrix.....Ya know....I don't think I've ever looked at any of my stuffs star rating......I do like comments tho.....



marcodd
(Stranger)
10/31/07 04:20 PM
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I'm afraid.... but i suppose we'll never find a convergence point. Wink

Because you haven't answered to my primary question... 

What is the useful thing in having a work rated by an anonymous without any explanation? Is it useful to me to improve my work? i don't think so.

Is it useful to other users or visitors, to valutate contents before downloading?

It should be, but only if previous ratings were honest and correct... and , just imho,  

an anonymous rating system is too subject to abuse to be right.

But i also understand where the fear is ... you could not be free to give me a 1 star (only the same example as before Laughing ) if the rate was signed, 

because i could complain with you, or enter into your portfolio and rate all your works with a 1/2 star... it's a possibility! So, i think there is only a solution: 

eliminate the useless star rating system, and leave only the comments.

 

P.s.

"That itself is an opinion and I don't happen to share it"

yes , you are right, but it is not an anonymous opinion, so it has a value!

 

P.s.2 Hi Panthia! Thanks a lot for your comment on my Halloween image. I appreciate it very much. 





Beatrice
(Stranger)
10/31/07 05:01 PM
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Get rid of ratings or force the person rating to comment and show that it is that person making the rating.

I don't believe ratings work I think that whole system is just open to abuse.





jakehellerModerator
(Journeyman)
10/31/07 05:26 PM
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What I don't quite understand is why people seem to think star-ratings are only of value to the person whose work is being rated. When I go to YouTube, I immediately sort by ratings. The ratings are anonymous. The point is that now I can see how everyone else liked the item, which is usually a good predictor of how much I'll like it. It only takes a few people (no more than 5) for a good average score to come up.

Even with sites like Yelp.com (if you haven't already checked that site out, do), where people do leave comments, I rarely read them... I really just sort by rating, since that really helps (and I've found a lot of good restaurants that way).

I want the rating system to primarily serve that purpose. You watch it/view it/use it, and now, since you are a nice person, you want to let other people know to watch it/view it/use it too.

Not to mention, I'm a bit afraid that people will just not rate as much if they are forced to leave a named message. First, it's more of a hassle, so naturally people won't want to do it. Second, concerns about PMing/rate-backlashes are real, and will tend to decrease honesty on the site.

-Jake 





Panthia
(Newbie)
10/31/07 05:35 PM
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I see your point jake....but unfortunately, the rating system isn't being used by many period.....



Beatrice
(Stranger)
10/31/07 06:07 PM
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People have learnt to manipulate the rating system so its no use. It looks pretty and that's about it in my opinion.

We've all seen it happen at places like Rendo when really good art gets nowhere because the artisit is not a member of a clique and people who have produced really not very good art have shown in the top ten because they wee voted on by all their friends.

A lot of people have the feeling that if someone votes for them they have to automatically go and vote for that person whether or not their art is good. That's why rating sysems and particularly anonymous rating systems don't work.





Tessalynne
(Stranger)
10/31/07 07:11 PM
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I guess I'll, chime in here, though I may regret it. (I often do)Foot in mouth

 

If the rating system actually meant anything then your point of it being useful to those downloading the content might be a valid one.  However, because of the convienence factor you mentioned, which is in my opinion a valid observation,m how many of the ratings that do appear would you suppose actually come from people who have downloaded and used the content and then returned to rate it?  I'm guessing it would be a very small percentage.  So when folks are seeing ratings on things at this site most of what they see are as previously mentioned just a person's opinion based on a variety of factors. 

How good does the preview/promotion of the item look when they get here and often, since we promote our own downloads, does this individual have a reputation for producing quality usable free stuff with working files among the users of the refering sites.  This type of rating can be subject to abuse, but if genuinely rated on those factors might be useful to a downloader.

 

The problem comes from the divergance of opinion among the folks who are uploading content as to what is or isn't useful and their ratings being based on these opinions (to which they are definitely entitled).  The high end 3D user who thinks that there is too much Poser content on the site and sees Poser as useless, if they rate, are likely to rate that content low with no knowledge of the content itself.  The modeler who thinks there are enough textures might do the same.  The 3D person who sees no use for elements of 2D design the same. And on it goes.  

 

While everyone is indeed entitled to hold and express an opinion, these types of ratings are of no possible use to the downloader looking for a specific type of content because they aren't really an accurate reflection of the content being sought.  And one only need read forums, here and elsewhere, to see that people do indeed evaluate content on this groupline criteria.

 

When you add to that those who would just blatently abuse the rating system by highly rating something just because they are friends with the creator or poorly rate it because they dislike them, regardless of quality, you are left with the current mess that is the rating system.

 

Not being able to see this as any kind of useful tool to a downloader, I see no point in the system existing.  Better to police the site for download fraud, work towards getting things properly categorized, pull violations when they are found and let nature sort out ranking by using a sort by number of downloads feature in place of the sort by rating.  Not number of views mind you, but number of downloads, a close look at something is often enough to tell one they don't want to download something for any number of reasons. (unsuitable for their needs or whatever)

 

I can't help but believe that if one consistently does their best work , provides working files, adequate readme's and documentation and keeps their ear to their respective user base's needs and desires are that  quality will show in the long run.  And it will show in the form of people coming to download those files.  A better and more extensive catagory of searches would probably be necessary to accomodate items that might be seasonal in nature.  But it just seems to me that this would better serve a downloader than a star rating system that is too often based on anything but the content it is rating.

 

Just my opinion and my observations in the couple of months I have been using this site and creating free content. 





MatrixWorkz
(Member)
10/31/07 07:31 PM
Re: Quiet forums new [re: Tessalynne]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

So far, nearly all of the Star rating's I have given have been on the Halloween Contest entries. I think beyond that I've only rated maybe 4 or 5 actual downloads. Before anyone asks, I've given at least 5 other images better star ratings than what my own entry has because I think they're better images. One of them I even gave a whole 5 Stars to. Don't remember which one it was at this point but I remember it blew my image out of the water.

The only "Use" I see for Stars is to make people feel good about getting them but since the whole system seems to be causing more grief than joy, I doubt I'll be rating anything else.  



It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Albert Einstein


Tessalynne
(Stranger)
10/31/07 08:32 PM
Re: Quiet forums new [re: MatrixWorkz]Report this article as Inappropriate to us !!!Login to Reply

I don't pay much attention to them at all, for all the same reasons that I said I didn't think the system was of any use to potential downloaders. Laughing  There is no question that you are right. it feels good to see 4 or 5 stars on something that you have worked to make.  But if one puts too much stock in them then all those things that were just as much work that go unrated can be discouraging.  I actuallly place more value in comments.  But that is just me personally.  I figure if they come and look it is good, if they download and can use it is even better. :)




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